Talk:Transmutation
Proposed Errata: Dodging a gaol may be done, at +2 difficulty if the target suspects it is coming (or has enough Auspex to precognitive sense the danger). The difficulty increases by one for each success beyond the minimum required to imprison him or her. A successful dodge must take the target completely out of the are of effect: a minor shift of body weight might avoid a blade but not a gaol.
Solid objects caught within the gaol displace the air to be hardened, reducing the total gas affected. They do not increase the total volume that can be solidified. The volume solidified is not precise: perfect planes and angles are impossible (this is a "quick and dirty" path, after all). Solidifying the air around something that mostly fills the specified volume probably creates a series of disconnected chunks that, while interesting, do nothing to hinder its movement.
Shaping solidified air in an unusual pattern (I.E. entrapping someone but leaving their head or a single hand free, or leaving an arrow slit in an otherwise solid wall) must be declared before the roll, and done at a +1 difficulty. Particularly elaborate structures may be higher at Storyteller's discretion.
Though the air is basically physically indestructible, elements within it still react chemically in the normal manner. Fire burns through a gaol as the oxygen is removed, and certain acids and other chemicals will eat the prison away. Also, in order to remain stationary, the light-as-air block must be anchored to at least one immobile physical object, which may be broken with sufficient force, rendering the gaol mobile.
The following table outlines the volume, maximum area of a thin sheet of solidified gas, and what may be trapped within it. Note that a block of air that is too small to completely entrap a being may still hinder them: One success below the number required can cause specific difficulties (bind the legs, an arm, etc). In this case, the difficulty to dodge the gaol is at normal difficulty (6).
| Successes | Volume | Example | Maximum area of a thin sheet | Largest creature entrapped |
| 1 | 5 inch cube | A brick (3"X4"X6") | 1 square foot | A small bird or rat, or a few of mice |
| 2 | 1 cubic foot | 1 square meter (9 square yards) | A small desktop computer | Large rat, bat, cat, medium sized bird, small dog |
| 3 | 10 cubic feet: a cube 2'2" on a side | About the size of an average CRT television | 5 square yards(A square 6 feet on a side) | medium sized dog or large bird |
| 4 | 50 cubic feet: a cube 3'8" on a side | A big screen CRT or student's desk | A square 12 feet on a side | A child, wolf or average dog, the largest birds |
| 5 | 125 cubic feet: a cube 5' on a side | A telephone booth | About 125 square feet (an area about 25' X 25') | A human or large predator (Hispo Gaoru or tiger) |
| 6 | 500 cubic feet: a cube 8' on a side, or a sphere 12.5' radius | A small storage shed | A square about 40' on a side: about 1500 square feet | A Zulo, Crinos or other "War Form," a Bear or Horse (with rider) |
- Bruce's Comments (cut-and-pasted from email)
I know that the position of storyteller carries a tremendous amount of responsibility. Ah, that was hard to swallow wasn't it? But, in the sense of fairness, justice and balance, it is true. How many of the other original vampire players would still be our fellow players if their storyteller had acted to maintain balance and fairness in the game? The truth is I don't known, but I believe that balance and fairness are critical as a storyteller, which is where I start to have a problem with dilution or concentration of power in paths of thaumaturgy or any other sorcery that have stood the test of time in our game and that means they have remained viable for decades of play.
That being the case, I have to vote against any changes in the current write-up of the Path of Transmutation, save for a better definition of what a successful roll translates to in terms of volume and the weight of items affected by level 3 - Liquify the Solid Form and level 4 - Gaol.
I have read the Path of Transmutation in both the Dark Ages Companion, pg.92 & 93 and in Blood Magic, pg.81 - 83. In the more recent version, that of Blood Magic, it mentions clearly that this path is a "Quick & Dirty" path and as such it is view unfavorably by the masters of Clan Tremere for while it can achieve the same kinds of feats as "True Alchemy", it does so in a less than complete way because it is so...imprecise.
The above reason is the most important one, the path is quick and dirty and imprecise, thus it cannot be used to achieve feats of accuracy. The proposed errata that you (Jamie) have put forward are all good innovations, unfortunately, thaumaturgy is static and once created, paths and rituals do not really evolve. What actually happens, is that a particularly gifted young magus comes along and figures out what is wrong with a path (like the old Path of Spirit) and that individual researches a new path (like the Path of Spirit Manipulation), that is better to one degree or another. The new path will also in time, be seen as "flawed", not because there is anything inherently wrong with the path, but because nothing is perfect. Static magic is an unchanging tool, it can be used in novel ways and under certain unique circumstances it can achieve slightly different effects than were intended, but under normal circumstances it behaves the same each and every time.
Perhaps, unfortunately for the sorcerers of the vampire group, blood magic is as static and unchanging as the vampires themselves, but then if dynamism were our goal, we would be playing Mage and using True Magick.
I am going to address your changes, Jamie, in reverse order starting with your chart.
The chart you set up for the Path of Transmutation power level 4: Gaol is a move in the right direction. We do need a better slide-rule for determining the size of the object or person imprisoned, but the path power stops at five (5) successes and cannot by the level 4 powers' description imprison anything larger than an adult human. While a meta-magic ritual could help adjust this more to your liking, it would have to be researched. Had the Tremere been able to imprison the Tzimisce in Zulo form with this power which is a signature Dark Ages effect, then the Tremere - Tzimisce conflict might very well have ended as a massacre for the Tzimisce. Likewise, no where does either of the descriptions of the path mention freezing a man on horse-back or anything larger than a man, like a Crinos werewolf.
Second, you are correct that fire, acid and other chemical or alchemical reactions could have an effect on the "indestructible" prison of air (that is just Tremere propaganda at work). But, that is the province of the storyteller, not the player or the character; I think it best that storytellers continue to adjudicate the effects of one sorcerer's working upon that of another, though there is nothing wrong with players offering suggestions. On the matter of the Gaol being stationary, that is simply a part of the way in which the path power works, the prison is stationary because it was never designed to be mobile. While later thaumaturges might look upon that as short-sighted by the originator of the path, it is important to remember that that individual had just come up with something completely new and likely did so in his or her isolated chantry, thus it remained down through the years. If you find that doesn't work for you, a new path might be in order or more likely a meta-magic ritual to nudge the power the way you want it.
Unfortunately, the idea of sculpting air with this ritual into precise shapes has already been addressed, but I feel its important to remember that this is a "Quick & Dirty" path that doesn't create crystalline detention centers, but crude blocks of solidified air. This is not to say that a skilled thaumaturge could not control his or her level of success to the point that he or she could create a crystalline block deliberately around an opponent's arms binding them together, but that isn't the same thing as conjuring crystalline shackles including chains of air. Nor does it mean that you cannot bind a opponent with his neck sticking out, but he is still imprisoned in a immobile crystalline block of air that dissolves at the end of the scene. Elaborate structures are completely out of the question without meta-magic or an altogether new path.
I mostly agree with you on the matter of solid objects caught within the Gaol, except for the idea that anything larger than an adult human can be imprisoned, it cannot, that is the limitation of the path power. Were a thaumaturge to use meta-magic to alter the parameters of this path power, it is possible to try and bind creatures or objects larger than an adult human, but then there would be many variables to the "if" statement.
On the matter of dodging Gaol, I have to point out that it is an instantaneous effect of thaumaturgy. Some, some area effect powers of thaumaturgy and other sorceries can be dodged, but not this one. No where in its description does it mention the target having the option of dodging the effect. Auspex might well warn you not to go up against the thaumaturge who knows this power or that the outcome of your struggle is likely to be negative. But unless you buy one of the more advanced level Auspex variations designed for combat and or dodging sorcerous effects, and you do battle a thaumaturge with this level of power - then you run the risk of being imprisoned.
As a final point, I would like to illustrate that many of your enemies have fallen to this very power and they were never able to dodge it. This is not to say that this power trumps any other and is therefore broken; there are countless discipline powers and combinations that could allow a combatant to escape such a prison and you Jamie have one of those very powers - teleportation. I know it is frustrating to have one of the thaumaturgical paths turned against you, but then, you didn't create them, the Tremere did and look at how many of them have lost battles to you or even their lives because the genie is out of the bottle. And that, is the real heart of the issue, once something is created, unless all who see it or come to know of it are killed or dominated into not knowing about it, that power could one night be used against your character. The only solution is to keep it under-raps as long as possible and then innovate a new trick to stay ahead of the eternal arms race of sorcery.
- Jamie's response to Bruce
Your points, as I understand them are (please correct me if I have misunderstood them):
1) Some of the changes I proposed increase the power of Rank 4 - Gaol, and that is not acceptable.
2) The progression of the size affected for levels 2, 3, and 4 are a good step, but flawed.
3) It is possibly to chemically destroy all or part of the Gaol, but by specifically mentioning it, the Storyteller's prerogative is being impinged upon.
4) Anything above 5 successes must be ignored, because the path is "quick and dirty," and because Whitewolf never provided for the possibility of more than 5 successes in this power.
5) Anything more precise than a usefully oblong blob of air is not possible with this power.
6) You agree with me that solid objects caught within the defined blob displace the air that would be solidified. Here, you consider the application of metamagic, which is beyond the scope of proposed clarifications of this power.
7) It is impossible to dodge or otherwise avoid being imprisoned by this power by mundane means.
8) We, as characters, have abused this path in the past (if such use is considered abuse), and therefore must accept that it has and will be abused against us.
In order, my responses:
1) My intent was never to increase or significantly alter the power. Instead, I was trying, with each clarification to address "grey areas" not covered in the all-too-short writeup provided by Whitewolf with what seem to me to be the most obvious and reasonable definitions. Thus, I hope to limit its possible abuse and overreach. Having re-read the changes I proposed, I still do not think that, eccept for clarifying the results of more than 5 successes (which I will address in point 4), I have in any way done so.
2) To me, they seem to be a decent progression roughly in line with the geometric guidelines that whitewolf usually uses. I tried to use the "entrap a creature of greater size in each step" guideline as a starting point. However, if you don't like them, what would you propose?
3) If I had included the phrase "at storyteller's discretion," would it be less offensive to point out that solidified air is still composed of the same molecules, which, though held in place magically, can still alter their chemical bonds? The reason for this is that Thaumaturgy (and all non-true-Magick) is, as you put it, static. The molecules are held in place, but nothing else. I truly did mean to include "at storyteller's discretion." That's what I get for submitting a rough draft from work.
4) This point seems to be the main point of your objection, since you mention it more than once, and the major source of your vitriol. This is surprising to me, since I never considered otherwise. To artificially limit the number of successes available seems to me to contradict several presidents and undermine the premise behind the d10 system.
Frankly, I think that you are misplacing the emphasis of "quick and dirty" here. It applies more appropriately elsewhere. Whitewolf has almost never detailed the effects of any power above five successes, but no where else have we limited anything to 5 successes (except when 5+ successes have a permanent or otherwise perfect effect). The authors at Whitewolf assume that most characters are extremely limited, and even those who are considered masters usually are written with 6-8 willpower. At difficulty 7, why should they bother to figure out 6 successes? This is much the same laziness they showed in refusing to consider that a werewolf might ever want to use a power of heightened perception to pierce Obfuscate.
Instead, I see it this way: The lens through which power is poured may be flawed (causing a temporary effect, which seems to be the main objection raised by Whitewolf's off-screen Alchemists), but pouring more power through it still causes a greater, if still flawed, effect. Earlier ranks of Transmutation specifically allow more successes:
Rank 1, when used on weapons, provides increasing effect up to 10 successes (and +5 damage).
Rank 2 solidifies 2 pints of liquid per success (or one blood point) with no upper limit.
Assuming that allowing greater degrees of success would have been the single factor that would have turned a marginal Tremere victory in the Omen War into a complete slaughter seems odd to me. Transmutation is just one of many abilities of varying power that was employed on both sides. It might be possible, with a truly above-average roll (or the use of quintessence) to imprison a Zulo. How many successes are required to imprison a Vozhd? And you yourself pointed out that there are ways to get out of a Gaol.
We have, in the past, verbally assumed in game that successes greater than 5 would affect larger areas. I was merely trying to codify that rather than leaving it vague. I had intended to extend the chart further, but will refrain from doing so until and unless this issue is resolved in my favor.
5) Agreed. I withdraw the idea that more elaborate shapes may be created. You did not address my assertion that imposing even a rough shape on the "blob" should require a higher difficulty. What do you think?
6) The use of metamagic to alter the effects of magic must be adjudicated at the time it is proposed. Without that exception, you seem to be agreeing with me that too little air left in the defined volume cannot restrict the movement of solid objects within it.
7) Again, I have to disagree with you. One permutation of the "Quick and Dirty" judgement is that it is not properly targeted via Identity. Instead, Gaol is targeted when the caster sees an area and chooses to try to affect it. Much as Lure of Flames requires a roll (Perception + firearms/archery) to target it, it seems that usefully placing a gaol should require a roll. Static items may not dodge, but individuals with exceptionally good reflexes (who can thus overcome the caster's attempt to place it properly with a dodge roll at difficulty 8) and who know it is coming could potentially avoid it. Gaol is not targeted by identity, and thus has no "homing" ability: if something is too quick for the caster, it is not caught.
I do not think that I am contradicting White Wolf by allowing a potential dodge: Rather, I am considering something that they (as they often did) failed to consider. I will go further and propose that targeting the Gaol requires a Perception + firearms (or archery) roll at difficulty 6, while dodging it requires a Dex + Dodge roll at difficulty 8 (ties going to the defender).
8) I have always been a great proponent of the principle that players and storytellers should be playing by the same rules. I will point out that, though it seems possible, no one on either side has ever imprisoned someone's arms and torso with Gaol, much less subsequently removed that person's head. As a character, I have used it entirely defensively, either to force someone to stop pursuing me, or block a passage, etc. Nor have any of us used it against a Tremere in this iteration (though I have used it, again defensively, against a Giovanni Thaumaturge).
Finished with responses.
I would like to add a clarification that Gaol is limited by volume, not by what it imprisons: Multiple smaller creatures, if grouped together, may be caught in a single Gaol.
I would also like to add that (since the power is "quick and dirty") the intended affect must be declared before the caster rolls to determine how effective the power is. This can allow for "hedging bets," ("I want to center the effect on his head," which could mean that even 5 success leave the victim's legs uncovered), or attempts that cover too small a volume to be useful ("I want to cover the doorway with an impenetrable wall of air," is probably useless without 3 or 4 successes).
Bruce's Reply: Jamie, as you and Brian are the only storytellers left, perhaps you should seek out his opinion or just do what you want. It your game after all.
Brian's Reply
Time to weight in although I am wondering if it matters....we will see.
1. Path powers can't go above 5 success in effect. It is not laziness on the part of White wolf just a limitation on path powers. Extra success can be used to over come resistence or to refine control but you will never get more power than is listed at 5.
2. no problem with progresstion in general except there would be no 6, see above.
3. the destruction of solid air.....It can happen....up to ST how..
4. See 1. above; your glass can only hold so much, no matter how much water you have to pour into it
5. We have agreed that as you go up in the path you get more control. If you have only level 4 and you get no extra success to refine your use(see above) then yes, you get a blob. At level 5 you get more control over your blob up to ST disgression.
6. This is governed by ST when approving metamagic, don't worry about it now....
7. This power is very hard to dodge, without mind reading or some sort of elder Celerity. It works based on the success on the path roll, only powers that are very fluid(like conjuration) or do damage( Lure of flames or lvl 5 weather) require dice rolls. Lets keep it that way .... if you are reading you enemy's mind when he casts we will deal with that then.....
8. Past is the past, if we decide to change how something is used we change for everyone and don't worry that we did it wrong a year ago.
quick but I am at work.....
