Please read and post about the future of the site
To all the players using this site
I spoke with Bruce today, and we have worked out some of the issues that we had, though not everything is copacetic. However he brought up a good point as far as the site goes. It would be better if the site were group owned, and not under the purview of one person. He has offered to front the cost of the time and money I have spent and have me move the site to another hosting server with a group of admins. I am not opposed to this idea but I stated that the only way I would be happy would be if it really is belonging to the group, and not one member. In this end I open it to the group as far as what they think.
- 3 admins each with full control of the site and hosting server. This provides a systems of checks and balances to ensure no one person is acting without the approval of all. Also should they need to vote on an action there will never be a tie or deadlock.
Bruce offered Jason and Keith as two people who volunteered, I also offer myself, and I think Jamie expressed interest. Personally, I have plans for some things I would like to do in terms of skins, and I would like to try them out. Pick three (I have a vote for Jason, and myself.. Don't know Keith, but that would make him fairly neutral should any disputes need to be resolved.) - Site purchased with a group name, with the current admins listed as contacts. Since it will not be “owned” by any one person, they could not sell it, or turn it off without the others' permission.
- Dues - Bruce mentioned that he would pay what I have put in so far, but each user should chip in dues for the site each year, so the URL and hosting are not the responsibility of one person. (FYI admins can also be users so would need to chip in dues. And also from this point would be volunteer, and should expect no compensation aside from gratitude)
--Please post your own thoughts--
Bruce: First off, yes Kate and I met today. We met at 3:30pm today (12/16/13) at Dave & Busters to talk over our disagreements and the future of the site. While our issues are far from being resolved, we did make progress today in moving forward from our past disagreements to the future of the Vampire site. To be truthful, our progress was a good start, so diplomacy does work. I don't think either of us got exactly what we wanted, nor do I believe either of us got our complete points across. But these things do take time. Kate was nice enough to drop me at a nearby Perkins after I drank a touch more than my normal fill - thanks again Kate.
Back to things that really matter. Besides rehashing unpleasant feelings and reiterating our various points more than thrice, we did manage to talk about the future of the site. Initially, I suggested that Kate had poured a decent amount of cash into the site and it would only be fair that she be recompensed, which I then offered. I also pointed out that such a recompense would come with a couple of small strings: the first, would be the transfer of the site in its entirety to a new domain, the second was that Kate should not continue to act as an administrator for the vampire site. I explained that from my perspective, that the failure of the vampire site occurred a little too close to the time of our disagreement for coincidence to be a very likely excuse, while admitting, that I did not know for certain what might have been its cause.
I then outlined the idea that the site should have two (2) new administrators, I suggested Jason and Keith as potential candidates for those two positions. Unfortunately, Kate clings to the idea that there should be three administrators and that she should be one of those three individuals. I again explained that give the unfortunate timing, she really should not be one of those administrators. But, since she is bent on the idea, I did agree that it would be fair for her to put it to the players and storytellers as a whole to decide how they feel about her continuing in the position of site administrator.
During out discussion of recompense, things naturally bogged down. Here Kate's perspective and mine seem to have diverged to some extent. I felt that reimbursing her for her annual expenditure for the vampire site seemed reasonable and that a touch additional would be fair as she started the site and made it available to each of us. During this point in the conversation she noted that she had a figure in mind, but needed time to think about it and that she would consult Megan (her spouse) on the matter. I agreed that it would be a good idea to take some time and think the matter over, but I also pointed out that if the figure were too large, that there would be no recompense, as it would be cheaper to restart the vampire site elsewhere.
So in summary, the primary issues are monetary recompense and whether Kate should be an administrator for the new vampire site. In terms of monetary recompense, Kate is undecided and hasn't offered a figure to me yet. As for her being one of the two administrators of the new site, I cast my vote as one of no confidence in Kate for this particular position. I encourage each of you to make your decisions independent of what you might feel for Kate or myself; do what is good for the group and the vampire site as a whole.
As an aside, Kate seemed very concerned about the group and vampire site remaining viable and independent of those who might have nefarious plans. Like me. I am after all a carbon copy of my Lasombra character (subliminally - If you are reading this, you are under my control!), with the ability to turn everyone around me into puppets (subliminally - Do exactly as I tell you!) and the skill to plot against your average espionage agency (subliminally - Now, carry out your orders and forget that we had this conversation!). Hey, thanks for the ego-boost Kate!
I guess that I'd rather see the site become a mutually owned thing with no one person has absolute control, and I'm willing to pay my share to see it happen.
As far as changing the appearance of the site – skins and such – I'd rather keep what is working. We don't have a marketing department, so let's not go down the road of change for its own sake. I'd rather see admins doing almost nothing: Just keep regular backups and make sure the site remains up.
I'd extend that to extensive formatting – if everything is indented and bold, all you've done is reduce the size of the page – but I guess that's a different issue.
However, if there is a way to make private pages so that Storytellers can upload story material without making it public, that's a change I'd support. Not skins, functionality.
By the way, when we have a definitive date, let us know when the cutoff for new additions.
-Jamie
Bruce: That is very egalitarian of you Jamie and we appreciate your financial responsibility as well. But, sadly, you somehow completely over looked the question of administration. If you would please amend that oversight, we can move forward in steady fashion. - Bruce
Ok... I'd rather support admins who won't tinker too much, and simply be responsible about keeping regular backups. I'm not too worried about the number - more than one, but too many could be a problem as well. Two or three doesn't make much difference to me.
As far as their identities. I do have to vote against Kaitlin for this reason: she has abused the power on one occasion. When suggestions were being made to alter one of her signature powers after a long period of play testing, she shut it down by locking out any additions to the page as admin.
I wouldn't have expected this abuse of power from Kaitlin, and I can't predict such abuse of power from anyone else, so I don't have much of an opinion on who would make a good admin. If someone is willing to put in the minimal work necessary, and make sure that they maintain enough storage space on their own computers to keep regular backups - I don't trust the cloud - I'm fine with it.
I have to say that the issue of checks and balances among them should be moot - if an issue is contentious enough it requires a vote, there are few enough of us that it should be taken before the group.
-Jamie
My 2 cents, I don't want to be admin... That being said I would love to have private pages for secrets and storytelling. I mention this because it's a reason to move above and beyond other issues. I would like to see at least 2 admins, I am not stuck on 3. I would rather Kate not be an admin for awhile. This can be changed later. If Kate is admin, why would we move the site at all? Just add some other admins here.
I can pay for some of the site for upkeep. I have some problem with paying Kate any amount for the site, she had the site for her business needs and the vampire site did not cost any more than that. Most of the building of the site has been done by people other than Kate (Bruce and Jamie mostly) so there should be no "payment" for construction. That being said, I have no problem with paying for fees that she has paid recently.
I think we have covered points mentioned.
-Brian
I do not care how many admins there are. Two or three is good. I am good with being one of the admins. I do not think Kate should be an admin. Timing for the site going down was...providential. I felt violated when I went to log on to work on my stuff and the site was down and found the email telling me there had been a dispute over gaming. I would love to hang and game with you guys, but if anyone has been paying attention I am working on material for my own use over here. Not having access to it on the weekend I was going to start a new group in a new city left me...pissed.
Now then, I am am willing to contribute a nominal amount for the work already done, but keep in mind a small amount. As Brian said this site was part of Kate's work, and was not costing her anything. I will happily help pay a part of what it costs to maintain the site.
I do not care about visual changes. Secret pages so that Storytellers and members can upload stuff they don't want totally public would be cool. I am like Jamie there, functionality matters, not visual. I think this covers our points. Thanks for having this conversation friends. Looking forward to seeing you next month. Keith
There are many things that I want to say in response to what has been said here, and what I have noticed on the site. However, before I get into that I will let it be known that I will do one thing. As I told Bruce when I spoke to him, I will package up the site, and hand it off to whomever in the game asks for it. No stings, no charge just a package deal. From there you can do what you wish with it.
As for what happened with me as an admin... Jamie, the ability to lock pages comes with any user. I locked the page because I didn't wish anyone one to come and edit it without my permission. After I did so, there was a bit of discussion and it was agreed from all, that editing another's page, even if the edit was warranted, would not be done. This is why I think that is the only time any user has done so.
Brian.. As for me using the site for my business.. Yes the wiki is hosting on the same server I used for my business. And I believe that site is still up. However if I were to pull the server records, you would find that 90-100% of the usage comes from the wiki. I haven't been doing business for well over 5 years so me paying for the hosting, has pretty much only been to keep the vampire site active.
And finally as to why I left he game in the first place. Well my character is city bound to two cities. One was the preview of Bruce (Sofia) and the other was Jamie's city, which was also run by Bruce. While I could have played under Brian, in Quebec that would be the only time I would be able to play. When he stated that he would no longer run my character, that in effect said that I was no longer welcome in this game. It was not what was actually stated, but in effect it was what it would amount to given all the people and characters involved. Given the amount of emotional crap I have had to deal with over this issue, I am not 100% certain this is something I want to do anymore. 17 years is a lot of time to invest, and having it ripped away in a single moment, well it has happened once, and now to some extent is happening all over.
I have given Bruce the figure of $500 which is about what I have paid for hosting, and the URL over the course of the years. Should you choose to give that to me, I will not turn it down, as I am still in serious debt. Once you all decide where the site goes, I will back it up and hand it off for you to do with as you will. As for playing... While I would do like to play, I am done with the emotional roller coaster the game has caused me over the course of the last few months and I am not sure it would be worth coming back. I will be taking a hiatus from the game of indeterminate length.
Bruce: Kate, in this, I cannot speak for anyone else. But, perhaps a change of site administration won't be bad for you or for the group a s whole; it might give you the time to work on your writing and or storytelling. Perhaps you will see the positive side of this, perhaps not, that is entirely up to you. On to other things, your willingness to turn over the site to the group as a whole is a good and wise choice that serves as a stepping stone towards the healing our group needs to move forward, you included. As for administrative abuses, the saddest part of that is that you thought we would just go and edit your handiwork after all that had been said on that matter; I am sorry you didn't trust us to disagree with you without thinking we would violate the sanctity of your vision. As for the business matters, I think its fair to just take you at your word; part of trust is just accepting you at your word and on this matter I do completely. The money issue can be worked out between you and I in as equitable a way as I can manage. Finally, as I said before, so I will say it again, there was no reason to leave the game; I understand you had a violent emotional reaction to my statement and the following deletion of your character was simply unnecessary. I would encourage you to return to the game as the upcoming story that I am running concerns all your characters. Ultimately, its your decision and we will all accept that decision, but if it were me, I would not let anyone stand in the way of me roleplaying my character and 17 years shows the test of time versus all sorts of difficulties, personal or otherwise.
