Talk:Shadow Feasting
Commentary on Shadow Feasting
Go ahead Jamie...comment.
Ok, this power uses Celerity and Obtenebration to accomplish, by my count, three things:
1) It allows you to find and gather a previously unknown, insubstantial source of vital energy. You can use this "Obscurum" to:
2) Power a Vampiric discipline. Yes, that is correct.
3) Temporarily placate the Beast by mimicking the feeling of satiation that comes otherwise only with blood. Yes, that is also correct.
I'll address these in reverse order. After that, I'll address the question of level and powers involved.
Number 3 is pretty easy actually. The ritual Blood Rush does something similar, though it gives no other benefits. That this is a discipline technique (and thus, the "most powerful" way of achieving something at a given level) means that I have no problem with this aspect. Excellent, I will keep this in mind.
Number 2 is most analogous to Flow of Ashe level 4: Favor of the Orishas. This path power is significantly more broad, allowing an alternate source of energy to power any discipline. A path power is the "least powerful" way to achieve a result at a given level, but the difference between levels 4 and 1 is pretty staggering. An interesting point, suggesting that such a discipline technique would be considerably weaker than level 4 Thaumaturgy, perhaps a level 2 discipline combination.
Number 1 is the most problematic. You are asking us to add something new to the game world. If it exists, it opens up an entirely novel area of mystical exploration, on which your character will own a monopoly. I need convincing. I would too.
The case against:
- If this "Obscurum" exists, it has done so literally beneath the noses of every Abyss Mystic who has ever studied shadows, and never been found. By your reasoning, these very mystics should be among the best sources. A damn fine point that needed to be brought up and stated.
*Does any real-world occult source posit that shadows contain a vital energy that can be used to any end? None that I have been able to discover, no.
That they have substance (darkness or anti-light) yes, but I have never encountered any account of shadow containing vital energy. However, I may simply be under-educated in this field. Actually, you seem pretty well versed in a field dominated by conspiracy theorists and disturbed shut-ins.
The case for:
- Creatures such as "Shades" and "Nocturnae" are composed of something, and "Obscurum" may be that something. However, these things do not naturally exist in our world, and it takes a great deal of power to bring them into it. It seems to me that the animating consciousness (soul, perhaps?) of the Nocturne gives the shadows coherence and vital energy, not the other way around. Another good point, that we will come to at a later date. But your point is thoughtful.
*Why not?
If Obscurum exists, it needs to be explained in much more detail than the basic description you give it. Some immediate questions:
- How much Obscurum is available in any given shadow? A good question. If I believed in Obscurum, which my Lasombra might, I would say a test needed to be developed to determine that. As a storyteller, if I bought this ridiculous theory, I might assume that the shadow possessed a pool of Obscurum equal to its host's blood pool.
- How quickly does it accumulate? Time and living systems are tied together irrevocably, so the shadow's Obscurum pool would be a dark reflection of it's host's blood pool. However, as a storyteller, I point out that time alone wouldn't be the only factor, after all its the Curse of Caine that determines how much blood a vampire can carry.
- What happens to the caster of the shadow if it is drained? I imagine it would disappear for a time, giving the poor mortal a temporary mystical flaw. You claim the vital energy comes from the shadow-caster, and that the two are metaphysically linked. I did posit that idea, yes.
- How, and how quickly, can it be gathered? That question has already been answered, but for clarity I will repeat myself. With this power Obscurum can be "harvested" 3 points per turn, unless Celerity is used to hasten the process. Using feeding on blood as a template seems untenable to me: Feeding is a purely physical process, that is governed solely (in the DA2 rules) by how much blood a vampire can physically swallow in an action. Obscurum has no physical substance. How can, for instance, the Maw merit alter the rate at which it can be provoked to flow? I would argue, rather, that it is simply absorbed, rather than drunk. Another excellent point that really needed to be clarified as our discussion progresses.
- And, of course, the question I've already asked... Why hasn't anyone else figured out that this stuff exists? Clearly, because its an avenue that some crackpot abyss mystic pursued millennia ago, and after centuries of vain failure, he or she was either disabused of such a fallacious notion or more likely drained by a more intelligent young upstart with the permission of his relieved elders.
Now for what always seems to be a pretty serious source of disagreement: Powers and level. Obviously, as players, we want to have easy access to useful powers. As storytellers, we want to be sure that we aren't allowing any game-altering new abilities to be had on the cheap. Jamie I absolutely love this statement, its eloquent, but direct.
Obtenebration is obviously involved. I don't understand how Celerity is involved, and I would like to hear your reasoning. Fortitude and/or Auspex make more sense to me. I included Celerity to make it a discipline combination, as otherwise it would just be an alternate discipline level one of Obtenebration and because I wanted to feed in Celerity.
- Fortitude can be used to add physical toughness to something - the easiest form of this I can find is level 2 - the ability to "lend" fortitude to one's ghouls. Effectively, you would be enhancing the substance of Obscurum in order to be able to move it into your own body. Is it easier or harder to lend substance to something that by definition has no solidity at all, even that of air? Give the nature of how Obtenebration works, easier, as the discipline can lend substance to mundane shadows.
- To the average eye, the shadow of a Methuselah (who has no bizarre flaws) is identical to that of his mortal double. Auspex grants supernaturally acute senses that might help to tell the difference. Particularly, level 2 (Aura sight) can be modified to detect such things as enchanted objects, and seems ideal for this purpose. A valuable point, that could be used by some enterprising young vampire.
This is the extent of my thoughts for now. I may make modifications if someone doesn't post before I have further insights. -Jamie
Jamie, your elegant discussion has "illuminated" me and I would like to change the "direction" of the "Shadow Feasting" discipline technique.
My new angle on "Shadow Feasting" is that it is the ability to feed on another vampire's actively manifesting Obtenebration. Mundane shadows possess no substance, but Obtenebration 2 - 5 is another matter. So the discipline combination is probably level 2 as it is so specific (as you pointed out earlier) in the methodology of how it gains blood. Also, as you pointed out, its a Fortitude and Obtenebration technique. As Obtenebration effects can be quite prolonged, the blood used is probably being catalyzed at a relatively slow rate, so the power of "Shadow Feasting" absorbs the remainder of the slowly catalyzing blood the other vampire used. This would have two effects. One it would bring whatever effect the other Obtenebration user was actualizing to an end and deposit that fraction of blood in the blood pool of the user of "Shadow Feasting". I will provide a write up of this new version of Shadow Feasting tomorrow, as I am busy running Rio de Janeiro today. -- Bruce
(Noon - 04/28/2014)
It occured to me on my way home that Obtenebration of at least rank 2 already has the ability to alter the consistencey of shadows. I would propose that the power, as you originally envisioned it would be a Obtenebration 2 / Auspex 2 power.
If I understand your final paragraph, you're effectively proposing an "Anti-Obtenebration" power that would allow you to harvest the blood spent by your fellow Lasombra even as you undo their effects? That would make you a particularly effective foil for your opposites within the Sabbat... -Jamie
