Difference between revisions of "Talk:Necromantic Mnemonic Rituals"
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While I understand that Phineus Niger created these rituals, and I understand that some of you have cast them from time to time...are they written down? How does memory of an exacting ritual stay so firmly entrenched in the minds of Bolverk and such? I am having problems with rituals, while I get that they can be learned...there is a reason magic users are known bibliophiles...you need a book to read to keep them. I am questioning this usage in the Dark ages...because Phineus and all his works are in the far future. Can someone help me on this? '''Keith 22:37 MST 10/01/2018''' | While I understand that Phineus Niger created these rituals, and I understand that some of you have cast them from time to time...are they written down? How does memory of an exacting ritual stay so firmly entrenched in the minds of Bolverk and such? I am having problems with rituals, while I get that they can be learned...there is a reason magic users are known bibliophiles...you need a book to read to keep them. I am questioning this usage in the Dark ages...because Phineus and all his works are in the far future. Can someone help me on this? '''Keith 22:37 MST 10/01/2018''' | ||
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| + | Keith - A ritual is a complicated and more powerful version of a spell. What is a spell? Damn good question. I would like to reference Aleister Crowley in this regard, but he is quite long winded and it isn't truly necessary to know what a spell is in the real world or what Crowley thought it was in any case. | ||
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| + | Rather I would like to go with a more appropriate source: Blood Magic - Secrets of Thaumaturgy, page 16. In hedge magic, also known as sorcery, magic is divided into paths and rituals. Paths are codified schools of magic that combine a progression of effects united by a common concept. A path may concentrate on a given ''effect'' (like Lure of Flames), a component (the Path of Blood) or any other ideal. | ||
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| + | A ritual on the other hand is: ''"A set of behaviors that produce a reliable effect, most similar to the fabled "Spells" of wizards. A ritual often requires time to cast as well as some sort of physical component that serves to focus the blood magic on the task at hand.'' | ||
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| + | What does all that mean? In essence, the magician is a cook in the kitchen. He or she has a special work space, ingredients and tools for producing a meal. Virtually any cook can boil an egg or make Ramen. People at home either throw food together from recipes or cook from memory. Sorcerers (hedge magicians) including vampiric thaumaturges and necromancers to name only a few, their magic is static and pretty much unchanging. Initially they do need books of recipes and it helps to have good books. It also helps to have innate talent. But after a while, after you have made the same recipe dozens, hundreds or thousands of times, the act of making a specific meal becomes habit. But sorcery is static magic, so every ritual is a recipe, and once you have mastered a recipe its kinda hard to forget. | ||
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| + | The books come in when you want to record what you have memorized for posterity, so others can learn your rituals or as works of reference. Reference works are a godsend, they give the sorcerer research material to move forward on paths and rituals, and to create something new. Is there a practical limit to how many rituals a sorcerer can know, not really. How many cook books have you read? Lots right? Of course you probably didn't memorize each recipe verbatim, but you still know how to make a vast variety of recipes - am I correct? If I put you down in a kitchen with all the recipes you know, but no cook books, I am sure you could figure out how to make a lot of things and many of them would essentially be the recipes you had read all those years ago. | ||
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| + | So what I am getting at is this, sorcerers are cooks in a kitchen. Some are very skilled and some can barely follow the instructions in a cook book. The characters you are dealing with are all amateur chefs with decades of practice. Unlike the Tremere they aren't professionally trained and certified, but they know their business and they have picked up a lot of recipes (rituals & paths) over the years. | ||
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| + | However, I think the question you should be asking is this: does the current paradigm support much of the magic they are using? That is an entirely different question and one that would affect which magics work and which did not and most importantly, how reliably that magic might work. For all intents and purposes, the coterie has been using magic regularly that is decades or centuries from being discovered by the historically appropriate figures. That very fact could have far reaching consequences on the current paradigm and could conceivably shift it in one direction or another. | ||
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| + | I hope I answered at least part of your question and gave you some food for thought. -- "The Magister 01:08, 2 October 2018 (MDT)" | ||
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| + | Answered it? Yes and no. A couple of the points you made reinforce my question, without answering it. The magic of the Necormantic mnemonic rituals is not part of Bolverks belief system. It is not consistent with a Viking Valdearmans system of thinking or religion. While I understand that the sorcery is static, like any recipe that holds true to a authentic version, there is quite often essential spices or styles that "make" the dish. In this case I am thinking that the question of a man of Bolverks background being able to statically reconstruct necromancy from Greek beliefs from memory after absorbing a whole new personality is not likely or high in probability without a text to remind him of the specifics. Maybe I'm going too far off in the weeds on this, but I am all about the "who are you" part of magic, static or sphere. While I understand that it's within the realm of possibility to know how and make a spell like this happen, to just off the top of your head recall all the details and parts of a level 5 spell created by another caster years previous in the future...stretches my credulity. (I know, I know, we play a game of fuzzy wolves and scary vamps, stop being so literal Keith!) But we are talking about kick ass heavy duty magic. This isn't a cantrip or a spell to find Svinegerds lost horse. Bolverk literally drank the essence of Lorraine as part of the spell. That is major ju ju. | ||
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| + | While I think it is more than possible for Bolverk to reconstruct over time the spells being used...to just remember them is stretching it. I will think on this, and I think in order to keep a little balance we should have a serious conversation about how this is handled. I do think that a Valdearman of Bolverks path rating could endanger himself by using this kind of magic. Perhaps I am being too literal. | ||
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| + | I do think that we didn't "adjudicate" it right Bruce, I think your points that he would have gotten more information is on point and well taken. I also think we need to talk about side effects, vis a vis ''I Zombie" and what happens when you "eat" somebodies memories whole. | ||
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| + | Thanks, I will think on it. '''Keith 1:49 MST 10/2/2018''' | ||
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| + | Keith - We can talk more about it when I get the ritual put up, its almost finished and then I will post it for commentary. Many, but not all the issues will be addressed. The crossing of styles is a function of Tremere magical thinking in which whatever works best can be adapted, but religious magic does have proscriptions in Blood Magic - Secrets of Thaumaturgy and Blood Sacrifice - The Thaumaturgy Companion. Good examples include Wanga and Setite Sorcery. Its conceivable that my own character Egon will be affected by the counter-resonance of Abyss mysticism vs Setite Sorcery. -- "The Magister 14:17, 2 October 2018 (MDT)" | ||
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| + | ------ | ||
| + | My 2 Cents. We have talked about Magic Styles before (Wanga, Hermetic, Setite) as being harder to learn. We dropped it as an unneeded complexity to an already complex system. Morgan and I have the longest list of rituals and a great number of them are self made. I agree that my char's Path of Enlightment doesn't have direct affect on his magic, it might flavor rituals he comes up with in the future but more from a flavor stand point. | ||
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| + | Just to be clear, in my eyes, Magic is not a gun or a chemistry set. I'm letting stuff ride here, this is a good discussion. I just want everyone to know my concerns as a storyteller. '''Keith 19:12 MST, 10/2/2018''' | ||
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| + | Gentlemen -- I think this one issue, while mildly significant, is far from the most important issue to spend so much time on. I am putting up the ritual tonight in the next hour, so we can discuss it more then. I feel we have let a relatively minor issue cloud up a very good game session. I think the introduction of a new storyteller has thrown the players for a bit of the loop, but I also believe its good for all of us to experience a new storyteller from time to time and I feel that most of last session was singularly positive. It has always been an issue when a different storyteller took primacy in the game even for short periods of time. As I recall, Brian, you recieved more than your fair share of criticism from the players when you were running us all in London against Dylan. I actually thought your performance was stellar, but new storytellers breed resistance because change causes friction. I know for a fact that you and I struggled under Jamie as storyteller for over a year and he could be quite exacting. Lets all be on our best behavior with each other as people and the game will work itself out. -- "The Magister 20:02, 2 October 2018 (MDT)" | ||
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| + | Sorry if that came off badly. I am only voicing concerns. I am not changing any rules in the future without input from the players. Again, for me this is all about voicing concerns and considerations. I want the game to be fun and consistent. Those are my over riding concerns. Fun and Consistent. '''Keith ''' | ||
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| + | I agree that it is good to have a new ST from time to time. I also understand that my character has a large range of abilities that can give any ST a headache. I have no problem with adjusting or changing to meet the changing needs of the game. | ||
| + | ---- | ||
| + | ''So, officially the ritual to acquire new or superior abilities has been put up - ([[Haematophagy of Mnemosyne and Her Daughters]]). I invite everyone to check it out and look forward to criticism on the nature of the ritual. Provided it meets with everyone's expectations, then it becomes canon. I expect I will have to clean it up once or twice because first efforts are that way, but I don't expect to change that much. This is a powerful and and theoretically game changing ritual, it could be abused and has addictive qualities. Be careful in using it. And as always...Caveat Emptor!'' -- "The Magister 10:16, 4 October 2018 (MDT)" | ||
Latest revision as of 09:17, 4 October 2018
While I understand that Phineus Niger created these rituals, and I understand that some of you have cast them from time to time...are they written down? How does memory of an exacting ritual stay so firmly entrenched in the minds of Bolverk and such? I am having problems with rituals, while I get that they can be learned...there is a reason magic users are known bibliophiles...you need a book to read to keep them. I am questioning this usage in the Dark ages...because Phineus and all his works are in the far future. Can someone help me on this? Keith 22:37 MST 10/01/2018
Keith - A ritual is a complicated and more powerful version of a spell. What is a spell? Damn good question. I would like to reference Aleister Crowley in this regard, but he is quite long winded and it isn't truly necessary to know what a spell is in the real world or what Crowley thought it was in any case.
Rather I would like to go with a more appropriate source: Blood Magic - Secrets of Thaumaturgy, page 16. In hedge magic, also known as sorcery, magic is divided into paths and rituals. Paths are codified schools of magic that combine a progression of effects united by a common concept. A path may concentrate on a given effect (like Lure of Flames), a component (the Path of Blood) or any other ideal.
A ritual on the other hand is: "A set of behaviors that produce a reliable effect, most similar to the fabled "Spells" of wizards. A ritual often requires time to cast as well as some sort of physical component that serves to focus the blood magic on the task at hand.
What does all that mean? In essence, the magician is a cook in the kitchen. He or she has a special work space, ingredients and tools for producing a meal. Virtually any cook can boil an egg or make Ramen. People at home either throw food together from recipes or cook from memory. Sorcerers (hedge magicians) including vampiric thaumaturges and necromancers to name only a few, their magic is static and pretty much unchanging. Initially they do need books of recipes and it helps to have good books. It also helps to have innate talent. But after a while, after you have made the same recipe dozens, hundreds or thousands of times, the act of making a specific meal becomes habit. But sorcery is static magic, so every ritual is a recipe, and once you have mastered a recipe its kinda hard to forget.
The books come in when you want to record what you have memorized for posterity, so others can learn your rituals or as works of reference. Reference works are a godsend, they give the sorcerer research material to move forward on paths and rituals, and to create something new. Is there a practical limit to how many rituals a sorcerer can know, not really. How many cook books have you read? Lots right? Of course you probably didn't memorize each recipe verbatim, but you still know how to make a vast variety of recipes - am I correct? If I put you down in a kitchen with all the recipes you know, but no cook books, I am sure you could figure out how to make a lot of things and many of them would essentially be the recipes you had read all those years ago.
So what I am getting at is this, sorcerers are cooks in a kitchen. Some are very skilled and some can barely follow the instructions in a cook book. The characters you are dealing with are all amateur chefs with decades of practice. Unlike the Tremere they aren't professionally trained and certified, but they know their business and they have picked up a lot of recipes (rituals & paths) over the years.
However, I think the question you should be asking is this: does the current paradigm support much of the magic they are using? That is an entirely different question and one that would affect which magics work and which did not and most importantly, how reliably that magic might work. For all intents and purposes, the coterie has been using magic regularly that is decades or centuries from being discovered by the historically appropriate figures. That very fact could have far reaching consequences on the current paradigm and could conceivably shift it in one direction or another.
I hope I answered at least part of your question and gave you some food for thought. -- "The Magister 01:08, 2 October 2018 (MDT)"
Answered it? Yes and no. A couple of the points you made reinforce my question, without answering it. The magic of the Necormantic mnemonic rituals is not part of Bolverks belief system. It is not consistent with a Viking Valdearmans system of thinking or religion. While I understand that the sorcery is static, like any recipe that holds true to a authentic version, there is quite often essential spices or styles that "make" the dish. In this case I am thinking that the question of a man of Bolverks background being able to statically reconstruct necromancy from Greek beliefs from memory after absorbing a whole new personality is not likely or high in probability without a text to remind him of the specifics. Maybe I'm going too far off in the weeds on this, but I am all about the "who are you" part of magic, static or sphere. While I understand that it's within the realm of possibility to know how and make a spell like this happen, to just off the top of your head recall all the details and parts of a level 5 spell created by another caster years previous in the future...stretches my credulity. (I know, I know, we play a game of fuzzy wolves and scary vamps, stop being so literal Keith!) But we are talking about kick ass heavy duty magic. This isn't a cantrip or a spell to find Svinegerds lost horse. Bolverk literally drank the essence of Lorraine as part of the spell. That is major ju ju.
While I think it is more than possible for Bolverk to reconstruct over time the spells being used...to just remember them is stretching it. I will think on this, and I think in order to keep a little balance we should have a serious conversation about how this is handled. I do think that a Valdearman of Bolverks path rating could endanger himself by using this kind of magic. Perhaps I am being too literal.
I do think that we didn't "adjudicate" it right Bruce, I think your points that he would have gotten more information is on point and well taken. I also think we need to talk about side effects, vis a vis I Zombie" and what happens when you "eat" somebodies memories whole.
Thanks, I will think on it. Keith 1:49 MST 10/2/2018
Keith - We can talk more about it when I get the ritual put up, its almost finished and then I will post it for commentary. Many, but not all the issues will be addressed. The crossing of styles is a function of Tremere magical thinking in which whatever works best can be adapted, but religious magic does have proscriptions in Blood Magic - Secrets of Thaumaturgy and Blood Sacrifice - The Thaumaturgy Companion. Good examples include Wanga and Setite Sorcery. Its conceivable that my own character Egon will be affected by the counter-resonance of Abyss mysticism vs Setite Sorcery. -- "The Magister 14:17, 2 October 2018 (MDT)"
My 2 Cents. We have talked about Magic Styles before (Wanga, Hermetic, Setite) as being harder to learn. We dropped it as an unneeded complexity to an already complex system. Morgan and I have the longest list of rituals and a great number of them are self made. I agree that my char's Path of Enlightment doesn't have direct affect on his magic, it might flavor rituals he comes up with in the future but more from a flavor stand point.
Just to be clear, in my eyes, Magic is not a gun or a chemistry set. I'm letting stuff ride here, this is a good discussion. I just want everyone to know my concerns as a storyteller. Keith 19:12 MST, 10/2/2018
Gentlemen -- I think this one issue, while mildly significant, is far from the most important issue to spend so much time on. I am putting up the ritual tonight in the next hour, so we can discuss it more then. I feel we have let a relatively minor issue cloud up a very good game session. I think the introduction of a new storyteller has thrown the players for a bit of the loop, but I also believe its good for all of us to experience a new storyteller from time to time and I feel that most of last session was singularly positive. It has always been an issue when a different storyteller took primacy in the game even for short periods of time. As I recall, Brian, you recieved more than your fair share of criticism from the players when you were running us all in London against Dylan. I actually thought your performance was stellar, but new storytellers breed resistance because change causes friction. I know for a fact that you and I struggled under Jamie as storyteller for over a year and he could be quite exacting. Lets all be on our best behavior with each other as people and the game will work itself out. -- "The Magister 20:02, 2 October 2018 (MDT)"
Sorry if that came off badly. I am only voicing concerns. I am not changing any rules in the future without input from the players. Again, for me this is all about voicing concerns and considerations. I want the game to be fun and consistent. Those are my over riding concerns. Fun and Consistent. Keith
I agree that it is good to have a new ST from time to time. I also understand that my character has a large range of abilities that can give any ST a headache. I have no problem with adjusting or changing to meet the changing needs of the game.
So, officially the ritual to acquire new or superior abilities has been put up - (Haematophagy of Mnemosyne and Her Daughters). I invite everyone to check it out and look forward to criticism on the nature of the ritual. Provided it meets with everyone's expectations, then it becomes canon. I expect I will have to clean it up once or twice because first efforts are that way, but I don't expect to change that much. This is a powerful and and theoretically game changing ritual, it could be abused and has addictive qualities. Be careful in using it. And as always...Caveat Emptor! -- "The Magister 10:16, 4 October 2018 (MDT)"
