Talk:Shadow Feasting

Shadow Feasting

Commentary on Shadow Feasting

Go ahead Jamie...comment.

Ok, this power uses Celerity and Obtenebration to accomplish, by my count, three things:
1) It allows you to find and gather a previously unknown, insubstantial source of vital energy. You can use this "Obscurum" to:
2) Power a Vampiric discipline. Yes, that is correct.
3) Temporarily placate the Beast by mimicking the feeling of satiation that comes otherwise only with blood. Yes, that is also correct.

I'll address these in reverse order. After that, I'll address the question of level and powers involved.

Number 3 is pretty easy actually. The ritual Blood Rush does something similar, though it gives no other benefits. That this is a discipline technique (and thus, the "most powerful" way of achieving something at a given level) means that I have no problem with this aspect. Excellent, I will keep this in mind.

Number 2 is most analogous to Flow of Ashe level 4: Favor of the Orishas. This path power is significantly more broad, allowing an alternate source of energy to power any discipline. A path power is the "least powerful" way to achieve a result at a given level, but the difference between levels 4 and 1 is pretty staggering. An interesting point, suggesting that such a discipline technique would be considerably weaker than level 4 Thaumaturgy, perhaps a level 2 discipline combination.

Number 1 is the most problematic. You are asking us to add something new to the game world. If it exists, it opens up an entirely novel area of mystical exploration, on which your character will own a monopoly. I need convincing. I would too.

The case against:

• If this "Obscurum" exists, it has done so literally beneath the noses of every Abyss Mystic who has ever studied shadows, and never been found. By your reasoning, these very mystics should be among the best sources. A damn fine point that needed to be brought up and stated.
  

*Does any real-world occult source posit that shadows contain a vital energy that can be used to any end? None that I have been able to discover, no.
That they have substance (darkness or anti-light) yes, but I have never encountered any account of shadow containing vital energy. However, I may simply be under-educated in this field. Actually, you seem pretty well versed in a field dominated by conspiracy theorists and disturbed shut-ins. I'm not sure if I should take that as a compliment, but you often surprise me with the results of your research.

The case for:

• Creatures such as "Shades" and "Nocturnae" are composed of something, and "Obscurum" may be that something. However, these things do not naturally exist in our world, and it takes a great deal of power to bring them into it. It seems to me that the animating consciousness (soul, perhaps?) of the Nocturne gives the shadows coherence and vital energy, not the other way around. Another good point, that we will come to at a later date. But your point is thoughtful.
  

*Why not?

If Obscurum exists, it needs to be explained in much more detail than the basic description you give it. Some immediate questions:

• How much Obscurum is available in any given shadow? A good question. If I believed in Obscurum, which my Lasombra might, I would say a test needed to be developed to determine that. As a storyteller, if I bought this ridiculous theory, I might assume that the shadow possessed a pool of Obscurum equal to its host's blood pool.
  
• How quickly does it accumulate? Time and living systems are tied together irrevocably, so the shadow's Obscurum pool would be a dark reflection of it's host's blood pool. However, as a storyteller, I point out that time alone wouldn't be the only factor, after all its the Curse of Caine that determines how much blood a vampire can carry.
  
• What happens to the caster of the shadow if it is drained? I imagine it would disappear for a time, giving the poor mortal a temporary mystical flaw. You claim the vital energy comes from the shadow-caster, and that the two are metaphysically linked. I did posit that idea, yes.
• How, and how quickly, can it be gathered? That question has already been answered, but for clarity I will repeat myself. With this power Obscurum can be "harvested" 3 points per turn, unless Celerity is used to hasten the process. Using feeding on blood as a template seems untenable to me: Feeding is a purely physical process, that is governed solely (in the DA2 rules) by how much blood a vampire can physically swallow in an action. Obscurum has no physical substance. How can, for instance, the Maw merit alter the rate at which it can be provoked to flow? I would argue, rather, that it is simply absorbed, rather than drunk. Another excellent point that really needed to be clarified as our discussion progresses.
• And, of course, the question I've already asked... Why hasn't anyone else figured out that this stuff exists? Clearly, because its an avenue that some crackpot abyss mystic pursued millennia ago, and after centuries of vain failure, he or she was either disabused of such a fallacious notion or more likely drained by a more intelligent young upstart with the permission of his relieved elders.

Now for what always seems to be a pretty serious source of disagreement: Powers and level. Obviously, as players, we want to have easy access to useful powers. As storytellers, we want to be sure that we aren't allowing any game-altering new abilities to be had on the cheap. Jamie I absolutely love this statement, its eloquent, but direct.

Obtenebration is obviously involved. I don't understand how Celerity is involved, and I would like to hear your reasoning. Fortitude and/or Auspex make more sense to me. I included Celerity to make it a discipline combination, as otherwise it would just be an alternate discipline level one of Obtenebration and because I wanted to feed in Celerity.

• Fortitude can be used to add physical toughness to something - the easiest form of this I can find is level 2 - the ability to "lend" fortitude to one's ghouls. Effectively, you would be enhancing the substance of Obscurum in order to be able to move it into your own body. Is it easier or harder to lend substance to something that by definition has no solidity at all, even that of air? Give the nature of how Obtenebration works, easier, as the discipline can lend substance to mundane shadows.
• To the average eye, the shadow of a Methuselah (who has no bizarre flaws) is identical to that of his mortal double. Auspex grants supernaturally acute senses that might help to tell the difference. Particularly, level 2 (Aura sight) can be modified to detect such things as enchanted objects, and seems ideal for this purpose. A valuable point, that could be used by some enterprising young vampire.

This is the extent of my thoughts for now. I may make modifications if someone doesn't post before I have further insights. -Jamie

Jamie, your elegant discussion has "illuminated" me and I would like to change the "direction" of the "Shadow Feasting" discipline technique.

My new angle on "Shadow Feasting" is that it is the ability to feed on another vampire's actively manifesting Obtenebration. Mundane shadows possess no substance, but Obtenebration 2 - 5 is another matter. So the discipline combination is probably level 2 as it is so specific (as you pointed out earlier) in the methodology of how it gains blood. Also, as you pointed out, its a Fortitude and Obtenebration technique. As Obtenebration effects can be quite prolonged, the blood used is probably being catalyzed at a relatively slow rate, so the power of "Shadow Feasting" absorbs the remainder of the slowly catalyzing blood the other vampire used. This would have two effects. One it would bring whatever effect the other Obtenebration user was actualizing to an end and deposit that fraction of blood in the blood pool of the user of "Shadow Feasting". I will provide a write up of this new version of Shadow Feasting tomorrow, as I am busy running Rio de Janeiro today. -- Bruce
(Noon - 04/28/2014)

It occured to me on my way home that Obtenebration of at least rank 2 already has the ability to alter the consistencey of shadows. I would propose that the power, as you originally envisioned it would be a Obtenebration 2 / Auspex 2 power.

If I understand your final paragraph, you're effectively proposing an "Anti-Obtenebration" power that would allow you to harvest the blood spent by your fellow Lasombra even as you undo their effects? That would make you a particularly effective foil for your opposites within the Sabbat... If this is so, it could be argued that it is an "alternate" power of main-line Obtenebration. The level is hard to pin down, but I'd put it at 2, with the caveat that the user can only affect powers that he or she knows. -Jamie

I know I'm stepping in uninvited, and it looks like you have found a good game solution, but let me throw something out. Shadow is believed to be a primordial essence by Greek mythology. I believe that sufficient trafficking in shadow (as done by a Lasombra) would conceivably give a working knowledge of what drawing on that essence entails. I am also sure that somewhere out there are several tails about shadow binding and its effects on a mortal/immortal. I will keep looking. I would put the power rating higher, also with sufficient study of ancient Greek works on mythology, but very doable. On one level I could see it as a type of pact with a dark being...Several of the powers of shadow evoke a type of "being" into this world if I understand them correctly. I know there is a lot of work to be done...but to a sufficiently crazy or power hungry creature the ability to access the hidden power of a shadows "energy" could be very consuming. Perhaps there are side effects, perhaps a pogrom against using such power. Just because they don't talk about it, doesn't mean that you are the first lunatic shadowmancer to think of it...just the only one alive now to keep asking questions. I'm not saying its viable now, but sounds like a lot of fun exploring. Anyway, just my two cents worth.

Thank you Keith for your two cents worth; I don't know about everyone else, but I like to have as many opinions and comments as possible. Its good to see conversation on the topics of the day or night...as it were. -- Bruce

Yes, Kieth, thank you. I always hope that these won't turn into a strictly two-way conversation.

---

Old Text of Shadow Feasting

Description

This discipline technique was developed by a Lasombra neonate and neophyte on the Road of the Abyss, who sought to solve a problem of pragmatism: how to feed the thirst of Lasombra warriors in combat without either drinking the blood of enemy vampires (an activity with obvious negative repercussions and one frowned upon by the Kindred in general, and by the elders specifically) and or abandoning comrades-in-arms to seek out safe sustenance elsewhere? The solution to the young Magister's dilemma may provoke debate and experimentation among the mystics of the Abyss for years to come, for it posits that in additions to the shadowy denizens of the Abyss, that the shadows of animate beings of this world bear a portion of their creator's life-force and can therefore be fed upon by the Lasombra who is skilled in the technique of Shadow Feasting.

While the occult principles behind the process are quite complex, the essential points of the theory are fairly simple. The theory behind this idea states that not only do the shadows of animate beings possess a life of their own, which is gained over time via spiritual osmosis, it also posits that the extent of that life-force is directly proportionate to the age of the being who casts the shadow. Thus, the shadows of most beasts and human children possess a relatively shallow pool of shadowy life-force, while the shadows of adult humans would possess a greater depth of shadow-life and the shadows of immortal beings like vampires (especially elders and Methuselah) would hold the deepest shadow-pools of all.

Obviously, the dark life-force drawn from shadows isn't blood, but life imbued shadow-stuff. This dark life-force, which we will henceforth call Obscurum (a Latin term meaning: shadowy unknown), would after the activation of the Shadow Feasting technique allow a Lasombra to fill his blood-pool with Obscurum from the shadows of animate beings upon whom he feeds. The devoured Obscurum, if consumed in sufficient quantities, would temporarily prevent the Lasombra from succumbing frenzy due to hunger and would furthermore energize any of the powers of Obtenebration and techniques based upon that dark discipline.

Among mystics of the Abyss, it is commonly said that the Abyss always takes its due, and so the user of this discipline technique does face certain penalties. Primarily, Obscurum like the shadows themselves is fleeting stuff, the dark life-force of shadows rarely sustains a Lasombra long after the end of hostilities and thus can place the Lasombra in a perilous position as his thirsty Beast suddenly lunges to the fore, compelling the Magister to feed whether he is in a safe position to do so or not.

System

To activate the technique, the player rolls Stamina + Occult at a difficulty of six (6) and expends one (1) point of blood. Each success represents an action in which the Lasombra can feed from the shadows of those around him. Clearly, the feeding vampire may only take up to three (3) points of Obscurum (shadow-blood) for each feeding, though, just like any other vampire he may feed beyond the normal three blood points per turn by using the discipline of Celerity to feed. Unlike blood however, Obscurum does not provoke the ecstasy of feeding to the same degree because Obscurum isn't really blood, so the feeding vampire can roll Perception + Alertness at a difficulty of seven (6) rather than the customary eight (8). This power lasts for a scene and at the end of the scene, the player must roll Self-Control at a difficulty of six (6). Each subsequent activation of this technique in a given night increases the difficulty of the frenzy roll by plus one (+1), and this penalty is cumulative with each successive activation of Shadow Feasting.

Requisite Disciplines: Fortitude 3, Obtenebration 5 (Tenebrous Avatar)

Experience Cost: 35

References: Transubstantiation of Essence (Level 2 ritual of Abyss Mysticism), Drinking the Blood of Ahriman (Level 2 ritual of Abyss Mysticism).

See Alternate Discipline Technique: Scavenging Tongues of Darkness (Obtenebration 2, Potence 2)

---

Commentary on the New Text

First, I'll point out a typo that survived from the original text to the current: In the "system" paragraph, you've set the difficulty for a perception + alertness while feeding to be "seven (6)." Now that that's out of the way, I'll move on.

I'm a little unclear on the self-control rolls involved. I'd like to know your reasoning for including them. I know of no other form of feeding that requires a self-control roll well after the fact (at the end of the scene - possibly up to an hour later, and possibly well after the vitae so acquired has been spent). If they are required, why does a penalty accumulate?

I probably should have waited till the Description section was completed. -Jamie

Probably. But to answer your questions, I hadn't gotten around to deleting the old system text yet. -- Bruce