Talk:Scavenging Tongues of Darkness
Jamie, I would very much like your opinion of this discipline technique and I am likely to try to buy it rather soon. -- Bruce
I'm seeing it as a lesser version of the Lamprey power - or am I wrong?
Firstly, it needs some refinement of the system: How large is the cloud, how long does it last, and what is the cost?
Second, I don't believe Potence 1 is strong enough for this effect: An Obtenebration cloud can be useful for defining the extent of the effect. The only similar power I can find is the abominably named "suck it up," which uses Protean and Animalism (I don't see anything that helps in either of these disciplines either - Vicissitude seems more useful for this power which requires physical contact with the spilt blood). The power you propose is much more efficient - potentially bringing vast amounts of blood to the user all at once, and if I read it right, cleans surfaces of potentially masquerade-violating vitae.
In short, I think that if it has limited duration and size, the minimum Potence would be 3. If it is capable of creating a cloud large enough to engulf a "60 car pileup," you might be looking at a 5 potence required.
As a side note, the greater fear effect of the more solid, more invasive darkness probably should be outlined: Mortals and neonates can easily panic when exposed to Nocturne. This is worse.
But, I may be being overly harsh in this judgement. Does anyone else have any comments? -Jamie
No, your not wrong, in a way it is a vastly weaker version of the Lamprey power (level 6 Obtenebration).
It has no power to take blood from anyone living or undead; I don't think it can even take it from inside a dead mortal or animal carcass.
The diameter of the tongues is probably based on Nocture, however, it doesn't really obscure sight or sound.
I have no problem with increasing the Potence level required, but 5 seems a bit high; after all, we have agreed that a level 5 Potence in combination with Obtenebration could make Arms of Ahriman aggravated. Frankly, it seems like over-kill to require more than a 3 Potence to achieve the ability to lick up blood-splatter.
I think the number of successes scored by the user should equal the number of blood that is recoverable; perhaps splitting successes between area of effect and the blood-pool that can be recovered would make a kind of sense.
When the tongues have reached saturation for lack of a better term, the mass of tongues returns to the user, providing the vampire with equivalent of mortal blood equal to some fraction of the user's successes and then the effect comes to an end. Alternately, and I favor this idea, the user's successes equate to the diameter of the effect, all shed blood is sucked up within the area and the user's successes are the number of blood that he is guaranteed to receive when the effect ends, while the the rest of the shed blood is received by the Abyss. A nice neat scenario as it certainly is a suitable tithe to the Abyss; or wouldn't you agree??
Clearly, the duration under this circumstance is one round, as the area of effect is based on Obtenebration 2 and one round sounds right to lick up all the blood and then at the end of the round the dark mass of tongues return to their master.
Since fear isn't an intended, its a side-effect and thus should hurt the user in some way. It doesn't seem unreasonable that the user would be looked upon as somewhat diabolical by mortals and neonates after witnessing or being subject to the effect. Perhaps it makes the user harder to be around like Clarity of Emptiness? -- Bruce
Sooo....I spoke to Bruce a little about this the other night. I will note some of that here. First off this is less of a cloud and closer to actual tongues of darkness, closer to level three Obtenebration than two. I DO NOT think that it should require level 3 Obtenebration but it should use the rules and systems closer to level three than 2.
Each success would give you one Tongue that would clear a 6ft Radius area, collecting max 3 blood points. I was looking but I don't see how long Arms of Ahriman last.... But in this case I would say they tongues last a round. They can "use" one of the blood points they have to stay around for another round. They would need to deliver their blood to the user. (Brian)
If I'm reading this right, Bruce's suggestion is:
- Duration is until the end of the round.
- Volume is based on Nocturne.
- The cloud removes all "loose" blood, and deposits up to the number of successes in the user's blood pool, when the cloud ceases to exist.
I have a couple of questions for clarification (actually, these apply to any version).
- What is the effect on those caught within the (brief, but in combat it can still seem like an eternity) cloud?
- What happens to impurities in the blood (drugs, the chemicals it dissolves out of a car's seat cushions, even fine dirt?)
- What happens to blood that is completely sealed? Will it empty blood bags, Vessels of Transference and Sanguinous Phials? (personally, I think the darkness should not be able to penetrate an opaque container any more than light can.)
Brian's suggestion is:
- Shadowy tentacles sweeping along surfaces, collecting blood as they encounter it.
- Each tentacle may collect up to three blood points (thus the total blood delivered to the user would be as much as 3*successes)
- tentacles may persist indefinitely, so long as they "spend" one of the blood points they have collected to remain in existence for another round. (this part seems excessively complicated to me).
- The tentacles have no physical substance, and cannot move anything, only crawl along surfaces (correct?).
- (Tentacles invoked by Arms of Ahriman are 6 feet long, unless the user elects to combine two or more to create a longer tentacle).
I'd like to propose something else: Base it on the "Lamprey" power it so mimics. The most recent write-up (and thus we can hope most play-tested) is The Darkness Within, which was published in the 3rd edition Guide to the Sabbat (I've tried to avoid confusion by not re-printing previous versions, but that doesn't seem to have happened in this case).
- The volume is smaller: The vampire vomits forth a roughly a 10-foot diameter pool of shadow that clings most thickly to surfaces. The cloud remains in contact with the vampire: a tendril extends from the user's mouth to the main cloud.
- The cloud may move anywhere within the vampire's sight. Being "non-physical," the cloud does not have speed limitations.
- The scavenging cloud lasts as long as the vampire concentrates on it (devotes at least one die on a split to controlling it's movement), but it disappears when it has absorbed two blood points per success on a Manipulation + Occult = 7 roll (Lamprey uses a pass/fail willpower roll, and may be maintained indefinitely).
- Each round, the cloud may absorb two blood points, one of which is returned to the Vampire. (Bruce, you spoke of a "tithe" to the Abyss. Lamprey allows the user to absorb 1/2 of the blood he takes from his victims, rounded up). If the cloud encounters less than one two blood points in a round, the vampire receives one, then one is tithed to the Abyss, etc. (Thus, the user may receive up to one blood point per success, as Bruce originally suggested).
- The cloud may only absorb liquid blood (blood that is useful to a vampire, in that it still contains at least some life-force). Dried blood is useless, and remains stuck to surfaces.
As a compromise with Bruce's version, it might be that the volume is variable: it washes forth in one round to engulf any "loose" blood the user can sense (see or smell), and returns to the vampire.
I think Obtenebration 2 is enough - the cloud-like invocation of abyssal darkness is what we're looking for. If we went with Brian's suggestion, I DO think that Obtenebration 3 would be required - it's not the power of the effect, but the general shape that seems to matter in these things.
Whatever way, I think that Potence 3 is an absolute must. Why? This power is BETTER than another power that does something similar (the afore-mentioned "Suck it Up" *cringe*) For game balance, a better power costs more. But it is really hard to gauge how much of a physical discipline is required for any power. In this case, mystical force much more akin to movement of the mind than physical strength is being applied to separate a sticky liquid from the surface to which it clings. Perhaps at 3 potence, that is possible.
-Jamie
I was planning on writing more but I am at work. Jamie summed it up. I agree with what you said. The user would not get the blood untill the cloud came back and "delivered" it.
